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Israeli conflict

Some points:

Posted by Cragslad on 2006-03-06 23:27:56

"During WWI both the Arabs and the Jews were promised a nation in the middle east for helping out. The Arabs got Jordon, and the Jews got nothing. Were you aware of this?"

That's inaccurate. Bone up on your Israeli-Palestinian history a bit, I suspect it's been a while, no offense.

"Did you know that the British "White Paper" sentenced many Jews to their death by stopping immigration when they needed to escape the holocaust."

Perhaps. Keep in mind that Jewish immigration was restricted or outright stopped in much of the world, inluding the US.

"Did you know that the land the Jews were promised was smaller than the Palestinian land if the UN resolution was followed and that their land was were the Jews were already? "

Untrue. The proposed Jewish state was bigger - not drastically bigger, but bigger. I think it was 55% of the land. And at the time, the Jews were a minority in the rgion and owned only 6% of the land, if I recall correctly. So yes, the land may have been where the Jews were, but there was an Arab majority where the Jews were. And those Arabs would have been living then in an ethnically preferential state. Not to say that isn't what the Arab states in effect are.

"Are you aware of the fact that Israel targets terrorist's houses rather than bulldoze random houses?"

Yes, I know they target terrorists homes. I'm also aware that sometimes they get the wrong house.

"Are you aware of the fact that Israel stops terrorists before they can strike, which is why more Palestinians have died than Israelis?"

You seem to be saying that all the Paelstinians who've been killed by Israeli forces have been terrorists? So, no innocents have been killed?

"Are you aware of the fact that many Palestinians were friendly with the Jews, and only turned on them because they did not want to become exiled from other Muslims when the Arabs attacked?"

Doesn't surprise me. Many other Arabs were uneasy with the fact that the Jews were trying to supplant them as the majority population and alter the social/religious/political landscape of the place they'd grown up in.

Posted by Dr.Smart on 2006-03-07 20:59:53

http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/brit-mandate-pal-isr-prime.html I could get more about Britain promising a homeland. Anyway, people make it sound like Israel only destroys innocents' homes. Your second point is then a bad point as they should have had a nation there. And yes, I made a mistake about the land size.

Posted by Cragslad on 2006-03-08 18:30:29

Britain did promise the Jews a home, I do not dispute that. Not a nation or a state, but a home. Balfour chose his words carefully.

But really, what right did the British have to make such a promise?

As for the bulldozing: There are shades of gray between the extremes of "they only knock down terrorists homes" and "they only knock down innocent peoples homes." Both these statements are asinine.

Now, the crux, the real meat of the issue, is your statement "they should have had a nation there." Why do you say that?

I think it would have been great if the Jews had already had a nation. But they didn't. Unfortunately, reality didn't match up with the way things might have been in a perfect world. There were already people living in the place where the Jewish nation "should have been."

The proposition that the Jews had a God-given right to artificially impose a new country on a land and people that had its own customs and history...is questionable.

However, as I've said before, what's done is done.

Posted by Dr.Smart on 2006-03-10 03:17:01

You are the one bringing up the fact that the Torah promises them a home, not I. There were people living there, true. The Jews bought the land they lived on and patiently waited for the details of their home to be worked out. Once they were, the Arabs rioted. The British repealed the offer, offering less. The Arabs still rioted. Eventually all thought of Israel was dropped because the Arabs were rioting. Jews were being killed in their homes. Christians, too. The Heron massacre. Shouldn't have happened, but the British stood by. All because the Jews were being offered safe haven. The Arabs are Nazis, no one will tell you this, though. They were tied so closely to Germany. They took on Nazi traits. There are still Nazis out there, they are the Palestinians, the Arabs. Its true. They are brain washed like the Hitler youth. This is why they didn't want an Israel. This is why every Jew must die in their eyes. Would you have put Muslims in charge? Who would have slaughtered every Jew in Israel? No, so they divided the land. If two people cannot live together, why force them? You say they are foreigners who took the land, but they bought land legally and stimulated immigration. Yes, people went there because Jews went there. During the 48 division the Jews comprised 1/3 of the population, would you have each and every one of them killed?

Posted by Cragslad on 2006-03-15 19:45:57

I never mentioned the Torah. "God-given" is just a figure of speech, altho since religion is so heavily mixed in with this conflict, it was probably a poor choice of words.

Yes, the Jews bought the land, for the purpose of setting up a new Jewish country in an area in which Arabs were predominant. The Arabs were there first, and they didn't want to see their homeland turned into a Jewish state, anymore than you'd probably like to see wherever you live turned into a Muslim state.

And yes, the Jews came by their land legally.

However, the intention was to flood the land with jewish immigration such that Jews would be the dominant social/political/demographic force, and the Arabs would be marginalized. How else could a Jewish state be realized, if the Jews were to share power? Mind you, I don't think this was going through the head of all or even most of the settlers, who were just moving to a new home in search of a better life. But this was the Zionist agenda. It was an intent to use force: not military force, although that was later used, but force through sheer numbers.

Legal? I think it was for the most part. Still, it is possible to seriously fvck up someone's life in a completely legal manner. You can see why the Arabs got p!ssed off, can't you?