Welcome! Sign in to access your account. New user?
ADULT: OFF HOME DIRECTORY SEARCH RANDOM POLL MAKE A POLL

The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

The Israel Lobby

Posted by Donald Dumpsfiels on 2008-05-03 21:48:26

Israel is the creation of the Arab States in the l940's. The Jews were kicked out and sent to what is now Israel to make a second massacre of the Jews possible. The Muslem Brotherhood believed that they could kill Jews more easier if they were put in one small area. Many Palestinian Arabs left so that the job would be done more easier. The inhabitants of the area around Israel have access to immense riches and could have used it to create industries and support the Palestinians. We now have the bizarre situation in which 15 million Jews are said to oppress 1500 million Muslems. So there is an Israel Lobby. How come the Arabs of the Middle East learn how the Jews were spread over the Middle East in ancient times and worked to help everybody.?They most certainly know about how the Shiites and the Sunnies came to be. Btw Paris Hilton is so skinny and has problems with booze because she has 100 Muslems assigned to her and she has to aoppress them daily.

Posted by adk on 2008-05-06 05:29:39

Israel was created on May 14th, 1948, but in order for this to occur, the Palestinian Arabs had to be ethnically cleansed. As of 1946, Jews made up 33% of the population in the British Mandate of Palestine, the rest being almost all Arabs. According to Resolution 181, the UN Partition Plan, a Jewish state would get 55% of the land, while the Arab state would get 45%. Palestinian Arabs obviously were upset with this, as any colonized people would be, and therefore the 1948 Arab-Israeli War broke out. Israel established itself as a state and swallowed up much of the territory that was intended for the Palestinian state, taking 78% of the land compared to the Palestinians' meager 22%. Of course, one can't deny that almost all Jews were kicked out of the surrounding Arab nations--this was a grave atrocity as well. However, when people indicate that Jews and Arabs somehow can't live with each other, they are deeply mistaken. During the Middle Ages and up until the 20th century, Arab lands, or more specifically, Muslim Arab lands, were more amenable to Jewish life than was Christian Europe. When the reconquista movenment in Spain kicked out the Muslim leadership in the south and therefore the Jewish population as well, Jews were forced to convert to Catholicism, die or flee. Where did Jews flee to? Oftentimes the Arab or Turkish Muslim world. Muslim lands provided a safe haven back then, so its quite sad to see modern-day Jewish-Muslim tensions. However, I don't view the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a religious one. I think it's far more about resources, specifically access to water. Religion is simply a tool, not a cause.

As for the Arab nations' mistreatment of the Palestinians, it doesn't matter. What matters is how Israel is brutally occupying the little land the Palestinians have left. The Palestinians are the world's largest refugee population at 4.5 million. These people deserve a state in which they'll be guaranteed their dignity and full rights as citizens. I'm not sure who you're referring to concerning people who claim that "15 million Jews suppress 1.5 billion Muslims". Other than the creator of the anti-Semitic website "Jew Watch", I'm not sure who else would make a claim like that. The fact of the matter is that Israel gets $2.4 billion a year from the U.S. in military aid, and by 2019 will be receiving $2.9 billion. There are 550-plus military checkpoints WITHIN the West Bank, as well as 450,000 Israeli settlers who live on illegally-constructed settlements. Incidentally, these settlements keep expanding, as exemplified by the latest construction in East Jerusalem in areas intended for a future Palestinian state. The 80% of the 700-km "security" fence being constructed goes onto West Bank territory and encompasses all the major Israeli settlements and large swaths of quality land. Separate Palestinian-only and Israeli-only roads exist, with the better-maintained and more convenient roads intended for the Israeli settlers. Although the Israeli roads theoretically aren't only for Jews, the settlers are all Jewish, so in effect the roads are for Jews only. As for Gaza, 1.4 million people are crammed into an area twice the size of D.C. under complete aerial, land and naval control by Israel. The economy is fully dependent on the Israeli military, which doesn't bode well for the inhabitants. So yes, I'd say the 3.9 million Palestinian Arabs--Muslim and the 10% Christian minority in the West Bank alike--are being brutally oppressed and colonized by Israel.

The one area in which I disagree with Mearsheimer and Walt is that I don't think the U.S. is somehow being "held hostage" by Israeli interests. I think the U.S. supports Israel because we need an attack dog in the Middle East to keep the Arab nations and the Muslim world in check, therefore securing our dominance in the region. Israel may be a rogue state; they may occasionally appear to go against our interests, such as the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty of June 8th, 1967. However, they are our key pawn in the neighborhood, and I think that if there was ever a situation in which Israel no longer could serve our interests--which I doubt will happen in the near future--the U.S. would immediately cut off the staunch support.

Posted by Dr.Smart on 2008-05-07 00:10:34

The original land agreement, turned down by the Palestinians, would have given the Jews Israel and the Palestinians modern day Jordan. This was after WWI. The Jews got turned down despite having a legal agreement with Britain that this would happen. Then The Jews were to get 1/3 of modern Israel, the third that would be more than 50% Jewish. This got turned down because of Arabs. And then the war of independence comes along not because of the Palestinians in Israel, but the arab governments call for war. And the Jews are attacked.

You want ethnic cleansing? There were more Jewish refugees in the middle east than Palestinian when both peoples were displaced. In fact it is illegal for Jews to be in Arab countries, were as only Palestinians (who were begged to stay) who willingly left Israel were kept out.

Ethnical cleansing? The British took the Jews' guns and left them to be slaughtered! The war of independence was not some planned extermination, its hard to plan to exterminate people who have more weapons and people than you!

The Jews know they need their own country. They would be banned or live as second class citizens, before the mass exodus of close to a million native Jews from Arab lands the Jews weren't allowed to ride horses, have bigger houses, or look richer than Arabs. And then prior to the war of independence there were hangings of Jews for no good reason, murders...

The perpetrators here are Arab government.

The palestinians could have had a state by now if they tried!

The gaza and west bank were theirs for the taking! No one wanted them when they were occupied, Israel tried to give them up for peace, but no one wanted the land....or peace for that matter!

Israel has promised to take down the settlements by force if need be. Never taken up on it. Why is the occupation of the land illegal? Ponder this for a moment. Who does it belong too? Before Israel occupied it, Gaza was egyptian and West bank was Jordan. Both countries declined taking them back and they were left unowned, unwanted. The Palestinians could have had a state, goddammit. They didn't take the land and now Israeli settlements are popping up on unowned land.

Why should Israel not crush the Palestinians? When they gave up gaza all they got was rocket fire! I do not believe in extermination, I would love to see a peaceful settlement, but until you realize Israel wants peace and would have gladly taken the 1/3 of the land in the begining...And as I said the original deal would have made the third of the land the Jews got had a greater than 50% Jewish concentration

Israel constantly asks for peace and gets war. You cannot expect any modern country to give ground to hostile forces. Don't be a hypocrite and look at the past. If you look to 1948 then you ignore the years of anti-Jewish sentiment going back into the 1800's. The hate, but at the same time the elgal purchasing of land, the legal right to it.

If you look back to when the Jews would get 1/3 of Israel then you ignore the WWI agreement, where the Jews would have gotten it all.

And if you look at that then you ignore the populations needed to be displaced.

We need a modern perspective. The past doesn't matter anymore. The people whose faults it is are long dead, leaders of Britain who confused the matter, leaders of Arab nations who provoked the Palestinians, Hitler who spread his ideas to the middle east.

All dead. If it weren't for Israel then after the holocaust there would have been another million dead Jews in the middle east. I am being honest here, over 900,000 Jews fled Arab countries because of threat of death.

Israel at the time was the only answer to ethnic cleansing, and asked for none on its own turf. The fleeing of Palestinians was initiated by Arab states.

Now for modern day problems....All Palestinians could easily be absorbed into Arab states. They could still fight for a state from there peacefully, but they would have jobs, etc....this doesnt happen.

Israel is not perfect. They are fighting an enemy who hides among refugees and fires rockets from building filled with women and children. How can you call that fair?

How can you call the ruthless faking of humanitarian problems fair? Pretending Israel arbitrarily stops palestinian ambulances, when palestinians use ambulances to smuggle bombs? Or faking bombings and saying Israel did it?

How can you call it fair when Israel asks for peace and Palestinians demand destruction?

How can you call Israel the villian when the got turned down by the palestinian governement to spend 11 million USD in medical supplies for Palestinian?hospitals?

Posted by adk on 2008-05-08 22:50:58

" . . . Then The Jews were to get 1/3 of modern Israel, the third that would be more than 50% Jewish. This got turned down because of Arabs. And then the war of independence comes along not because of the Palestinians in Israel, but the arab governments call for war. And the Jews are attacked."

Concerning the Palestinian Arabs rejecting the first plan, what people do you know who'd simply give up the land they'd lived in for thousands of years? And as for the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, it doesn't matter who started it--you have a Jewish population of 32% given a state on 56% of the land. This sort of solution is completely unjust, no matter how you look at it. I'm not concerned with whether or not the surrounding Arabs states cared about the Palestinians. I'm solely concerned with the rights of the Palestinian Arabs themselves.

" . . . There were more Jewish refugees in the middle east than Palestinian when both peoples were displaced. In fact it is illegal for Jews to be in Arab countries, were as only Palestinians (who were begged to stay) who willingly left Israel were kept out."

Well, that depends on the source. Israeli historians tend to put the initial refugee population at around 500,000, the UN puts it at about 711,000 to 726,000, and the Palestinian Arab sources say around 900,000. Since there were approximately 900,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries, perhaps a bit more Jews were expelled. Nonetheless, that doesn't justify the ethnic cleansing necessary to create a Jewish-majority state on largely Arab land. And yes, of course the Palestinians begged to stay--why wouldn't they want to remain on their homeland?

You're wrong, however, about Palestinians "willingly" leaving. Benny Morris, a well-respected Israeli historian, studied the exodus from 369 Arab communities within what we now call the Green Line. In 228 of these cases, Arabs vacated as a result of attack by Jewish troops, and in 41 instances the Arabs were forceably removed by the Jewish military. In 90 of the cases, Arabs left from fear they might be next, as a result of a neighboring community being attacked or cleansed. 45 of the vacancies are unknown, and ONLY SIX were encouraged by Arab authorities. As a matter-of-fact, Arab radio records from that time period show the opposite in most cases. Arab leadership actually threatened those who fled with punishment most of the time--they didn't want a mass exodus. Today it's pretty clear why.

"The British took the Jews' guns and left them to be slaughtered! The war of independence was not some planned extermination, its hard to plan to exterminate people who have more weapons and people than you!"

OK, your history is a little off here. From 1936 to 1945, the British collaborated with the Jewish Agency in which 521 Jewish weapons versus 13,200 Arab weapons were confiscated. Furthermore, I said nothing about "planned extermination". Ethnic cleansing can come in multiple forms--the main goal is to remove the "unwanted" people off the land you want, whether it's by killing, removal (forced exodus), fright or some combination of those. Haganah, Lehi and Irgun had plenty of time to prepare for this. As for the War of 1948, the IDF was far more advanced than the Arab armies, therefore, there was no way the Arab states could have won.

"The Jews know they need their own country. They would be banned or live as second class citizens, before the mass exodus of close to a million native Jews from Arab lands the Jews weren't allowed to ride horses, have bigger houses, or look richer than Arabs. And then prior to the war of independence there were hangings of Jews for no good reason, murders..."

So how does this justify disposessing the Palestinian Arabs of their land in order to build a Jewish-majority state? How does one injustice justify another? Jews were indeed discriminated against in Arab lands but two wrongs can't make a right.

"Israel has promised to take down the settlements by force if need be. Never taken up on it. Why is the occupation of the land illegal? Ponder this for a moment. Who does it belong too? Before Israel occupied it, Gaza was egyptian and West bank was Jordan. Both countries declined taking them back and they were left unowned, unwanted. The Palestinians could have had a state, goddammit. They didn't take the land and now Israeli settlements are popping up on unowned land."

Empty rhetoric on Israel's part. The government claims it'll remove the settlements yet they continuously expand, the most recent being the 700 newly-constructed housing units in East Jerusalem, located just where the Palestinians wish a future capital to be located. Ariel Sharon removed all the settlers from Gaza in Summer 2005--most of them are being resettled in the West Bank now under Ehud Olmert--doesn't really sound like Israel's telling the truth here. It doesn't matter that Egypt doesn't want Gaza and that Jordan rejected the West Bank. The Palestinians' land belongs to the Palestinians. The international community is unanimous in its acknowledgement that Israel has NO LEGAL RIGHT to build settlements on Palestinian territory. And I'm baffled by what you mean by "the Palestinians didn't take the land". Huh? They're living on it as we speak--just like they always have! It belongs to them, but Israel keeps encroaching.

"Why should Israel not crush the Palestinians? When they gave up gaza all they got was rocket fire! I do not believe in extermination, I would love to see a peaceful settlement, but until you realize Israel wants peace and would have gladly taken the 1/3 of the land in the begining...And as I said the original deal would have made the third of the land the Jews got had a greater than 50% Jewish concentration"

Why shouldn't they crush the Palestinians? Because it's called genocide! And as a matter of fact, Israel hasn't "given up" Gaza--Israel still has full economic and military control over the strip, controlling land, air and the Mediterranean coast. Because of Israeli restrictions and bombardment, there have been numerous deaths, injuries and malnutrition throughout Gaza. Collective punishment is illegal according to international law--worst yet, it's Israel's occupation that fuels the violence and anger to begin with. Clearly Israel DOES NOT want peace--the Israeli people undoubtedly do, but the government doesn't! As for the original land deal, what should have been done BACK THEN was to create either a bi-national state or a single secular state that would give equal rights to all inhabitants.

"Israel constantly asks for peace and gets war. You cannot expect any modern country to give ground to hostile forces. Don't be a hypocrite and look at the past. If you look to 1948 then you ignore the years of anti-Jewish sentiment going back into the 1800's. The hate, but at the same time the elgal purchasing of land, the legal right to it."

It's funny, you just provided a justification for why Palestinian Arabs opposed a Jewish-majority state back in 1948. You also provided a justification for militant resistance of the IDF within the occupied territories. The one exception is that the Palestinians aren't a country yet--all the more reason for them to be resisting the occupation according to your logic; they're resisting hostile forces. And the "legal" purchase of the land? According to whom? The British colonialists? It wasn't the British's land to begin with, so who are they to "sell" it? And as for the "hate", which Jews was it more directed to? The Mizrahim, who were native to the area, or the Ashkenazim, who arrived? And did all Arabs "hate" all Ashkenazim?

"We need a modern perspective. The past doesn't matter anymore. The people whose faults it is are long dead, leaders of Britain who confused the matter, leaders of Arab nations who provoked the Palestinians, Hitler who spread his ideas to the middle east."

Huh? You just accused me of being a "hypocrite" for not looking hard enough at the past, but now you're saying it doesn't matter anymore? No offense intended, but I don't understand your point.

"All dead. If it weren't for Israel then after the holocaust there would have been another million dead Jews in the middle east. I am being honest here, over 900,000 Jews fled Arab countries because of threat of death."

And the creation of Israel on largely Arab land sharply escalated the Jewish exodus, which hadn't been as extreme before. Once again, a better solution in 1948 or earlier would have been a bi-national state or a single secular state with equal rights for all people.

" . . . Israel at the time was the only answer to ethnic cleansing, and asked for none on its own turf. The fleeing of Palestinians was initiated by Arab states."

The establishment of Israel helped cause the ethnic cleansing, and I've already addressed your claim about the Arab states--that only accounted for 5% of the fleeing Palestinian refugees.

" . . . Israel is not perfect. They are fighting an enemy who hides among refugees and fires rockets from building filled with women and children. How can you call that fair?"

How can you call it fair that Israel regularly bombs civilian areas and that the ratio of Palestinian children killed to Israeli children killed is around 13:1? How is it fair that half the 650-plus Palestinians killed in 2007 were unarmed? How is it fair that Gaza is under complete military control by Israel and that the West Bank has 550-plus military checkpoints WITHIN the territories? How is it fair that hundreds of Palestinian homes and olive orchards have been demolished? How is it fair that an apartheid system of roads exists in the West Bank, with Jewish settlers receiving separate, more convenient, better-maintained roads than Palestinians? How is it fair that the 450,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank receive full protection by the Israeli military even though they aren't living on Israeli land?! And can you back up your claims that militants regularly hide in civilian areas and refugee camps? Are you by any chance referring to Jenin?

"How can you call the ruthless faking of humanitarian problems fair? Pretending Israel arbitrarily stops palestinian ambulances, when palestinians use ambulances to smuggle bombs? Or faking bombings and saying Israel did it?"

So are you accusing Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and B'Tselem (the Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories) of lying? Are you saying three of the most respected human rights organizations are making everything up? You think all the Israeli bombings of Palestinian civilian areas were made up by these organizations? You think they're lying about the IDF preventing ambulances from reaching hospitals? You think they're lying about the fact that they haven't found substantive evidence of militants smuggling bombs in ambulances? If you're going to accuse three very reliable human rights organizations of LYING, you'd better back it up with some REALLY GOOD SOURCES!

"How can you call it fair when Israel asks for peace and Palestinians demand destruction?"

It's pretty clear from the historical record that the more egregious violence has come from the Israeli side. Palestinian groups have done some disgusting things themselves, but they'll never be able to match Israel, which has the fourth most powerful military in the world--they can do pretty much whatever they want to the Palestinians.

"How can you call Israel the villian when the got turned down by the palestinian governement to spend 11 million USD in medical supplies for Palestinian?hospitals?"

Hmmm, are these same hospitals Israel likes to bomb near, I wonder? Are these the hospitals Palestinian victims of Israeli violence go to? Are these the hospitals some Palestinian ambulances have been restricted from reaching? Wow, how humanitarian of Israel!

Posted by Dr.Smart on 2008-05-16 20:17:04

There are so many lies about Israel, so much falseness paraded by otherwise respectable organizations. Don't believe everything these supposed experts on human rights issues tell you.

There are too many ignorant people who are lied to by biased media for me to explain everything to everyone, it takes too much time. But, if you want proof that these organizations lie I can give you something.

There is evidence that palestinians have used ambulances to get bombs into hospitals, just as there is evidence that they use human shields (and if you use logic, more palestinian citizens would die then Israeli citizens if palestians used their own women and children as shields like they do).

The only reason you seem to miss these events is because the media does not wish to print them.

http://www.beyondimages.info/b146.html

I do not wish to say Israel is perfect, I merely wish you to see that Israel is doing the best it can to stay moral when there is no easy way for it to be at peace with the locals short of suicide. If you wonder why Palestinians are treated with such restrictions maybe you should see why they are imposed.

If canadians were coming to America for hospital treatment and one day sent a bomb with one of the patients...do you think America would let Canadian ambulances in anymore?

Also you refused to acknowledge the people pushing off peace are the Palestinians and Arabs. Never ever cite the 1948 agreement as the first agreement that set this whole war into play. The best deal offered to the Arabs, which the Jews accepted, was fair (giving the Jews only 1/3 of modern Israel, the northern third where Jews were historically a majority because of a few major Jewish communities). Arabs refused. Jews agreed. So no, the Palestinians have had oppurunities and generous deals and refused.