Religion and 9/11

Good poll, but out of the 11 respondents so far, only 4 have actually answered question no.6. Personally I would never, ever fly a plane into a skyscraper, and the reason is that no God I believe in would ever want me to, let alone ask me to. The two things are mutually exclusive. The people who did that thing - the "God" that they believe in, if they believe in one at all, is the Devil! The Bible calls the Devil the "God of this world"!! Satan is very active in today's world. I know, because he enters me sometimes. It is very hard to resist him. Just my tuppence worth.

I understand your point. A God who would ask someone to do such a terrible thing is not worthy of worship.

However, you obviously do worship the God who, in Genesis Chapter 22:2, told Abraham "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

You obviously do believe in a God who commands this of Abraham. Now instead of the poll question, what if God told you to kill your son as he commanded of Abraham? Would you do it? If so, why is it morally acceptable to stab to death your own beloved and innocent only son, yet giving your life killing three thousand people you have been brainwashed to believe are all sinners is unacceptable?

As for the Devil who sometimes enters you: what if someone you loved was in distress (drowning, bleeding in the street, being assaulted, etc.) and the Devil told you to help them? Would you willingly follow the Devil's command? (Come to think of it, that's a great question to add to the poll. Thank you for bringing the Devil into this discussion!).

My point is, in thinking about these questions, I am forcing you to use a moral code of right and wrong which is idependent of God or the Devil. Believers find this nearly impossible to do because of their lifelong religious conditioning. Answering this question truthfully exposes that conditioning and brings down the entire house of cards. This is why believers are terrified to answer this kind of question.

Athiests, on the other hand, find no difficulty in answering these questions. Their morality is based upon their own examination of cause and effect which are observable and explainable with known universal laws. As for the afterlife, an athiest knows that the actions they take during thier lifetime will have effects far beyond into the future. Their moral choice is therefore based upon whether they want that future to be good or bad, and striving to live a life which will make that future a reality.

Morality is a result of evolution, not God. A completely immoral species would not value life, and so would have become extinct by killing themselves off long ago. The fact that we survive as a species despite of the evil we do (often as a result of a "God-given" moral code) is what inspires hope to the athiest.

========== In Reply To ========== Good poll, but out of the 11 respondents so far, only 4 have actually answered question no.6. Personally I would never, ever fly a plane into a skyscraper, and the reason is that no God I believe in would ever want me to, let alone ask me to. The two things are mutually exclusive. The people who did that thing - the "God" that they believe in, if they believe in one at all, is the Devil! The Bible calls the Devil the "God of this world"!! Satan is very active in today's world. I know, because he enters me sometimes. It is very hard to resist him. Just my tuppence worth.

God did not actually require Abraham to sacrifice Isaac - it was merely a test to see if Abraham would be willing to. Abraham was; I would not be. Fortunately conditions now are very different from back then, and God would not now ask such a thing. It is against what He has commanded, so any such instruction is not to be trusted. If you ever think your're getting such instructions from God, I suggest you go to the doctor and get tested for schitzophrenia. However, you should not discount the possibility that it is the devil trying to fool you into thinking that that's what God wants you to do.

As for what would happen if the devil told you to do rescue someone, not only would it be illogical for the devil to tell you to do what God would want you to do, there would be no way of telling that it is the devil, so your question is stupid.

The matter of the terrorists is rather different. They do not think think that God is directly telling them what to do, but they've convinced themselves that what they're doing is what God wants, and have blinded themselves to all the evidence that shows them otherwise.

And finally, there is far more to morality than doing what is condusive to the survival of the species. Have you read what Jesus has to say on the matter? ========== In Reply To ========== I understand your point. A God who would ask someone to do such a terrible thing is not worthy of worship.

However, you obviously do worship the God who, in Genesis Chapter 22:2, told Abraham "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

You obviously do believe in a God who commands this of Abraham. Now instead of the poll question, what if God told you to kill your son as he commanded of Abraham? Would you do it? If so, why is it morally acceptable to stab to death your own beloved and innocent only son, yet giving your life killing three thousand people you have been brainwashed to believe are all sinners is unacceptable?

As for the Devil who sometimes enters you: what if someone you loved was in distress (drowning, bleeding in the street, being assaulted, etc.) and the Devil told you to help them? Would you willingly follow the Devil's command? (Come to think of it, that's a great question to add to the poll. Thank you for bringing the Devil into this discussion!).

My point is, in thinking about these questions, I am forcing you to use a moral code of right and wrong which is idependent of God or the Devil. Believers find this nearly impossible to do because of their lifelong religious conditioning. Answering this question truthfully exposes that conditioning and brings down the entire house of cards. This is why believers are terrified to answer this kind of question.

Athiests, on the other hand, find no difficulty in answering these questions. Their morality is based upon their own examination of cause and effect which are observable and explainable with known universal laws. As for the afterlife, an athiest knows that the actions they take during thier lifetime will have effects far beyond into the future. Their moral choice is therefore based upon whether they want that future to be good or bad, and striving to live a life which will make that future a reality.

Morality is a result of evolution, not God. A completely immoral species would not value life, and so would have become extinct by killing themselves off long ago. The fact that we survive as a species despite of the evil we do (often as a result of a "God-given" moral code) is what inspires hope to the athiest.

"God did not actually require Abraham to sacrifice Isaac - it was merely a test to see if Abraham would be willing to."

Why would an Almighty Supreme Being require such a test? And an all-knowing God would know that Abraham would follow His orders however much pain it would cause poor Abraham. So God did it just to watch Abraham suffer? What a truly sadistic God you worship!

"Abraham was; I would not be."

Why not?

"God would not now ask such a thing."

Do you presume to know the mind of God?

"It is against what He has commanded, so any such instruction is not to be trusted."

"Thou shalt not kill." Okay. Sounds good to me. But wait a minute. My bible also tells these stories of how much God thinks killing is wrong: -In Genesis 7:21-23 God kills everything that breathes except those on the ark (I wonder how many pregnant women were killed who also had their innocent babies aborted by God.) -In Genesis 19:24 God wipes out Sodom and Gomorrah. Again, how many innocent babies did your loving Lord slaughter? -God kills all the firstborn in Egypt (Exodus 12:29). -God orders the "sons of Levi" to kill 3000 men (Exodus 32:27-28). -"The tender and delicate woman" will be forced to eat her own children "that cometh out from between her feet" (Deuteronomy 28:56-57). -God slaughters the Amorites, chases the survivors down, and kills even more of them with hailstones (Joshua 10:10-11). -God kills 50,070 men for looking into the ark (First Samuel 6:19). -God instructs the Israelites to massacre the Moabites and destroy their land (Second Kings 3:19-25). -God kills 70,000 men (First Chronicles 19:18). ...and on and on and on...

So, on one hand, we "shall not kill", yet God can just wipe out millions of people because they upset him. Sounds to me like God is the one whose integrity can't be trusted and seriously needs treatment for schizophrenia.

"...there would be no way of telling that it is the devil"

Then how do you know if you are following the will of God or the devil? Again, I make my point that your only choice is to use a source of morality that is independent of God or the devil, or, in other words, "a-theistic".

You also say that terrorists "do not think that God is directly telling them what to do, but they've convinced themselves that what they're doing is what God wants, and have blinded themselves to all the evidence that shows them otherwise."

The same can be said of Christians.

"Have you read what Jesus has to say on the matter?"

Yes I have. -In John 5:14, Jesus claims that the handicapped are being punished for sin. -In 2 Thessalonians 1:8 Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire." -In Revelation 2:23 Jesus threatens to kill the children of Jezebel. -In Revelation 19:11 Jesus goes to war.

"your question is stupid."

Belief in the myth of such a sadistic, vain, and vengeful God who often acts out like a spoiled child just because otherwise good people refuse to grovel at His feet is beyond stupidity and well into ignorance.

========== In Reply To ========== God did not actually require Abraham to sacrifice Isaac - it was merely a test to see if Abraham would be willing to. Abraham was; I would not be. Fortunately conditions now are very different from back then, and God would not now ask such a thing. It is against what He has commanded, so any such instruction is not to be trusted. If you ever think your're getting such instructions from God, I suggest you go to the doctor and get tested for schitzophrenia. However, you should not discount the possibility that it is the devil trying to fool you into thinking that that's what God wants you to do.

As for what would happen if the devil told you to do rescue someone, not only would it be illogical for the devil to tell you to do what God would want you to do, there would be no way of telling that it is the devil, so your question is stupid.

The matter of the terrorists is rather different. They do not think think that God is directly telling them what to do, but they've convinced themselves that what they're doing is what God wants, and have blinded themselves to all the evidence that shows them otherwise.

And finally, there is far more to morality than doing what is condusive to the survival of the species. Have you read what Jesus has to say on the matter?